HoTs and DoTs: A Restoration Druid and Shadow Priest

Normal, Heroic and Slightly More Heroic

Guild members help us complete ZA the 5 man heroic

Lathere and I face down Akil'zon with the help of our guild

If you follow Lathere and I on Twitter you probably read our despondent tweets a few nights back where we lamented the general sea of impatient and unkind players found via the Dungeon Finder.

After being carried through Throne of the Four Winds Lathere was wearing purple coloured glasses (if you can imagine such a thing). And the best place for us to get gear right now? The Heroic Zul’Aman and Zul’Gurub dungeons. And before we can qualify for the Z Heroics we need a bit more gear from normal Heroics.

Isn’t it odd how even between dungeons, normal or heroic, there are still different shades of difficulty?

And fresh from a 6-9 month gap, we had forgotten how unfriendly and punishing other players can be.

We queued for a Random Cataclysm Heroic and landed in Blackrock Caverns.

Step 1
Blackrock Caverns: Heroic but easy

We made a big mistake: we behaved like ourselves. This means that I, mistakenly, took time to say hello to people in our groups. Lathere almost immediately announced:

“This is the first time I’ve done this Heroic”

Or words to that effect. I chimed in:

“Me too. So any tips or reminders would be great.”

What I really wanted to say was: I will probably remember most of the boss tactics – from normal mode that is – after we’ve pulled each boss but having a quick little reminder before we pull will help me recall and perhaps do a better job. And I’d like to be told what is different on normal mode.

Our tank’s response was simple:

“Then we’re fucked.”

I thought that was a little extreme. Perhaps we should be grateful that he didn’t just leave the party immediately? No, wait, I think I would have preferred that.

Lath was quick to defend us “We’ll be fine. We’re not idiots!”

He went on to say something like “if DPS don’t know how to handle the beams on the second boss there’s no point”.

I was on Vent with the third member of our party, a Mage from our guild, so asked him what the tank was talking about. I did actually remember that boss – Corla, Herald of Twilight – quite well from normal mode when I was leveling:

In normal mode she she has two Zealots – one on each side of her – and when the fight starts they get struck by a steady, continuous beam (the purpose and origin of which escape me). The beam can be intercepted by a player simply by standing between the source of the beam and the NPC.

If the beam is not intercepted properly the Zealots turns into a giant ugly Patchwerk looking thing and promptly eats your healer – face first – and then the rest of the party.

I remembered this fight well and also remembered intercepting the beam back at level 80/81. Two players are required to intercept two beams.

In Heroic mode it’s three Zealots and three beams. Ideally you would have two ranged DPS intercept the two outermost beams and someone in melee intercept the middle one. If you only had one ranged DPS – or a more capable healer than melee DPS – you could ask your healer to take a beam, too.

I asked my friend, our Mage, over Vent:

Don’t you just have to watch stacks of something? Like you can’t take 100 or something?

I should point out here that our friendly Mage was on an alt and usually plays DPS as a Warrior. His advice was something vague about “get out before 80″.

This seemed straight forward enough and I was optimistic as I volunteered to take the far right beam on as my responsibility. The tank took the center one and my friend, our Mage, took the leftmost beam. I played cautiously and – since those stacks of the debuff ticked up so fast – strafed out just after 60. Taking in lag meant that my stacks were close to 80 before the beam broke from me.

Soon as it wore off I was back in there. And out before 80 again. That’s when things went wrong: my Zealot morphed into something big and scary. I knew something had gone wrong. And that it was my fault. But I was perplexed: exactly what should I do differently next time?

We wiped. I tried to explain what I had done over vent – hoping for someone to quickly grasp my mistake and fill me in – while we ran back.

Too late. Our tank left the party but not before leaving with a word of advice parting shot:

I suggest you learn how to do this before doing it on heroic.

How maddening! We replaced him and tried again with a new tank. This time around I had a chance to read the tooltip of the debuff and adjusted accordingly. The limit was 100, not 80 and getting out at 80 (not before) was a breeze.

Solved! Much easier than juggling Netherspite’s 3 beams, that’s for sure!

Am I behind the learning curve? Am I to be expected to get it first time? Am I expected to read up and study for each Heroic before I queue?

Maybe. That’s a shame. Learning first hand is so much more memorable. I don’t think I would even remember if I just read about it.

Starting the Heroic like that wasn’t enjoyable. I don’t think I relaxed completely until it was finished.

Afterward I found myself staring at my list of dated, but otherwise hard won titles from the last two expansions. Just to remind myself that I am a good player even if I am a little rusty and inexperienced with the ways of Cataclysm.

Step 2
Grim Batol: Normal but as difficult as normal gets

For the next few days we scaled back to queuing for the Random Cataclysm dungeon (non heroic that is). At level 85 “Random Cataclysm dungeon” means apparently means “Grim Batol“.

Lathere and I are overgeared for it and there’s not one upgrade for us there. But I diligently tried to pay attention to each boss ability, storing it away as practice for Heroic Grim Batol (which Ive actually done already a few times right after hitting 85).

These were straightforward runs. I rejoiced in the no-pressure but party-friendly use of Psychic Scream and Psychic Horror. Lath stopped paying attention to her mana: she had more than enough to play comfortably.

Step 3
ZulAman: Heroic and difficult

When we approached Heroics again Lathere chose the dungeon for gear (Zul Aman and Zul Gurub) on the proviso that our group and our tank were from our guild.

With a small amount of nagging and peer pressure we were able to talk some “old school” guildies into a ZA run (I say old school because these are the tiny percentage of players that were in the guild when Lath and I raided).

Oh my what fun!

I was mad keen to see what had happened to ZA: had they mangled it? Split it into pieces?

There’s no easy answer except to say: it’s so much like before. I actually know that instance better than I know any of the Cataclysm content. Which is saying something: I was no expert at ZA the raid and I’ve forgotten a lot in the last 3 years.

Most of the boss abilities seem to be similar although there is some rather major differences between old Nalorakk and new Nalorakk. I guess that makes sense: that fight was very much about two tanks working in tandem and juggling their threat at key points. Now players juggle their distance from Nalorakk to juggle occasional charge/swipe attacks from him.

Akil’zon doesn’t just force you to react to a Thunderstorm anymore – now his swooping birds actually try and pick players up. I’m pretty sure they didn’t do that before.

I teased Lathere something fierce as we approached the gauntlet to the Jan’alai boss. In the Burning Crusade we called on Lath to trap approaching Scouts before they could run to their drums and summon extra groups. Her timing was always so poor (like casting it after multiple, alarmed requests from us over Vent, usually by then they had already reached the drums!) we eventually took the responsibility away from her. Crowd Control is probably not her strongest point.

In saying that, I nearly wiped us on the Jan’alai boss simply because I didn’t realise the Hatchers would die with so little damage. I one shot on the Hatchers while our Shaman was killing the other and then saw our tank running towards my side to tank the hatched birds. Well the birds that would have been hatched if I hadn’t accidentally killed the Hatcher so fast!

Hex Lord Malacrass was a breeze and those Spirit Bolts made me itch for Circle of Healing.

Zul’jin has been replaced by a new last boss Daakara. The concept was much the same however in that the final boss channels the ability of each of the four animal avatars – bosses – already defeated.

Anyway, to make a long story short (too late!) ZA was so much fun. And I felt so comfortable there. In my element. I felt powerful too, although I’m sure that’s because my teammates were doing most of the damage, but that’s a topic for another post.

Oh yeah, and Lath healed just fine!

Step 4:
Zul’Gurub – Heroic and damn difficult

The following night, fresh from our success in Zul’Aman, Lathere and I queued for a Random Z. I’m going to call it the Random Z queue from here on out since both of the instances start with that letter and I can’t remember exactly how they are grouped.

While Lathere and I had some experience with Zul’Gurub (we used to run it with guildies before they were ready for Karahan just to get the raiding hook in) we didn’t run it at level 60.

What I do remember of the instance seems to have been changed completely anyway. You could argue that there are still Trolls in ZG but I think that’s where the similarity ends. Fortunately we dragged a third guildy, Velidra, along with us and asked him explain the important stuff over Vent. I think he may have regretted his decision by the end of the night and I do feel quite bad about that.

I can only think about how much worse it would have been without him!

Lathere confessed that we were new to the instance. We followed along closely and I stuck to my Dungeon 101 basics: kill what the tank is killing. I also clicked all those cauldrons. Because it seemed to be the Thing To Do.

The bosses all blur together in my memory now but I’m quite confident that we avoided the common mistakes/pitfalls. Sure, if I was more familiar with the instance I could have played better. I probably avoided stuff that wasn’t that harmful and took spell casting gaps where I need not.

Our tank left group without a word after the first boss. Coincidence? I hope so. Our replacement tank left after the second boss. As did a Damage Dealer. Coincidence? I doubt it. But he didn’t say anything either so I don’t know if it was something we did wrong (or something we weren’t doing… like high enough DPS?! I’m getting anxious thinking about it).

Our third and final tank decided to stick it out. We also picked up an Enhance Shaman to finish the run.

There was a bit of a kerfuffle before the Zanzil when I raced right past a group of enemy Trolls and pulled them without seeing them and realising it. I take the blame for that: it was absolutely my fault and hopefully one I won’t make again. This caused us to wipe entirely – Lathere and her heals were miles behind and our tank was quite far ahead of me.

We wiped on a trash pull soon afterwards again. And we really, really struggled to get the last boss Jin’do the Godbreaker.

I understood the concept: Chains that need killing, but first you have to lure the ugly giant to jump on you (while standing near the chains) before you can harm the chains. I didn’t quickly grasp the danger of what I think of as Shadow Crash (but everyone in the party described them as fire which confused Lathere and I just a bit) and also didn’t immediately understand that standing on a Chain inside it’s immunity bubble makes it impossible to see that you’re being pelted by Shadow Crash.

Lathere was even more in the dark and on each attempt just got wiped out by incoming damage and adds (spirits/ghosts) half way through.

After our second wipe the tank typed:

Do you know how to do this fight heals?

Lathere was pretty frustrated and I was pretty upset (I find referring to someone by their class or role is incredibly lazy and rude – they are real people after all). We explained that we were new to the dungeon and having it explained on Vent.

I think his reply was:

 zzzzzzzZZZZzzzzzz

And we got it on the next go.

From the Achievement spam it turned out that our Enhance Shaman, myself and Lathere were all new to the dungeon.

Step 5?

I thought we did pretty damn good. But even Velidra seemed a bit frustrated by the run “that took a lot longer than it should have”.

I am sincerely grateful for the help from guild members. I am sincerely grateful for the patience of other players who we encounter in the Dungeon Finder. I am even somewhat grateful to the impatient and rude players we encounter in the Dungeon Finder.

But I’m really, really tired of feeling this way in my groups.

I’m tired of feeling like I’m not good enough, or somehow am the weakest part of the team, somehow dragging down the run into something slow or hopeless or pathetic. I hate feeling as though I need to be carried. Feeling as though I am being carried.

I want to feel as though I contribute my fair share towards our success.

I need the gear from these Heroics. I’m using the Dungeon Finder to get that gear. I’m open to suggestions and encouragement and instructions ”priest, you take the right beam and get out before 100 stacks” but there seems to be precious little of that going around.

Nobody wants to tell me what to do. They just want me to give up and get out of their way so they can be finished – and rewarded – faster.

The shoe is on the other foot

Part of the agony of being in this weak, pathetic, pleading position is that I’m just not used to it. For years I’ve landed in dungeons as the most geared, experienced, knowledgeable player.

But I can promise you I never, ever, treated my fellow team players with disrespect or impatience. No matter how green they were (like being asked where my Tier 8 came from from a fresh 80 when Ulduar was the new big thing!). I knew that the dungeons I was in were designed for new level 70s/80s (as the case may be) and not for raiders. I was trespassing on their territory and not vice versa.

I like playing with new players. They bring enthusiasm to the game. It’s easy to get jaded when you’ve seen the inside of the dungeon a million times. A new player brings a fresh look and often gets you to see something odd that you never noticed before.

Playing with a new player is a chance to pass on your own tips and shortcuts.

Am I in the minority? Has it all been spoilt by raiders who are forced to run these dungeons because of the (presumably still relevant to raiders) rewards?

I refuse to believe that. Raiding doesn’t turn you from a patient person to an impatient person. Raiding doesn’t make you rude to strangers. If anything it should make you value teamwork over all else, it should make you better at networking and social situations. It should make you patient.

I don’t know what to do anymore. I can feel myself becoming more and more isolated and unwilling to play with strangers.

I was anticipating the launch of the Raid Finder but, honestly, I don’t think my ego could cope with it right now.

54 Responses to “Normal, Heroic and Slightly More Heroic”

  1. ImalinataNo Gravatar says

    I found this (http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2011/04/26/zulgurub-and-zulaman-boss-strategy-notes/) to be really helpful when the Z* heroics came out.

    When people are really bitchy, I’d probably just post something to the effect of “I’m sorry Blizzard is forcing you to run heroics you’re overgeared for for points, but I’m doing them, not for the points, but because I’m doing them at the gear level they’re designed for so that I can get upgrades. You’re welcome to quit and we can find another -fill in the blank- if you can’t handle not doing a GOGOGO heroic because you’re so overgeared.”

    I will admit that I find myself using my ignore list for cross-realm people FAR more than I actually use for people on my own server. I just have no tolerance for people who feel it’s acceptable to be an asshole just because they’ll likely never see you again.

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      Yes, I probably should use the Ignore function a bit more. Most of the players haven’t been outright rude but there just seems to be a lot of hostility lying underneath what little is said. It’s quite miserable!

      Glad to hear I’m not the only one who is upset by it.

  2. KurnNo Gravatar says

    I cannot stand dungeoning right now. At all. I have a hunter, a shaman and a druid that could all use heroic dungeons and the troll dungeons and I just won’t do it. I didn’t even do it too terribly long as either of my paladins, although I made efforts.

    These dungeons and the people inhabiting them are not fun. Compared to even the early days of Wrath, when Violet Hold was actually a bit challenging or Gundrak couldn’t be done in 14 minutes (extra boss included). These dungeons just aren’t fun — and being forced to run the troll dungeons for Valor Points in 4.2 is probably the most ridiculous thing of all.

    So I think you’re dealing with some of that fallout.

    I also think that part of it is that you’re both learning the dungeons months after they’ve been out. Collectively, most of the population already knows how to do each of those fights (having been forced to run them up to 7 times a week for 3+ months). Just being a bit behind the curve as you guys are is going to result in people being ridiculously bad to you, because now it’s a mix of people who need gear (like you guys) and people who need to VP cap (like raiders who haven’t been able to cap yet). The majority of raiders I know no longer run these dungeons. So you’re stuck with people who are still cranky about being in the VP grind and the people who, like you, don’t have a lot of experience with them. That, IMHO, is a baaaaad combination and leads to impatient other party members who assume everyone knows everything and that’ll lead to wipes. Or, if you announce your unfamiliar, it’ll lead to vote kicks or dropped groups.

    It’s not a good time to need those dungeons, sadly. The good news is that T11 has been so nerfed into oblivion that if you’re around 350ish ilvl, you should be able to decimate normal modes in T11 pug raids and pick up sweet 359 gear to go with your 359s you should be getting from JP and 378s from VP.

    The other bit of good news is that they’re changing how dungeon queues work in 4.3 so you’ll have ALL original heroic dungeons AND the troll dungeons in one category (and you won’t need full clears to finish those trolls) and the new 3 dungeons will drop 378 gear (equivalent to normal Firelands right now).

    So I think it’s a bit of a timing thing and I think you’d be best pugging raids if you can at all, in order to avoid the troll dungeons. Hell, pug Shannox and Beth’tilac if you’re mostly in 359s with a couple 378s!

    Above all, remember that you’re still good, smart players. Use your titles to prove that you’re an old-school player who knows what they’re doing (Hand of A’dal, Champion of the Naaru, etc). It helps a bit. ;)

    Good luck! :)
    Kurn’s last post: A Gear Post

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      I figured my timing was bad, but not quite that bad! I got quite laid back this time last expansion when it came to Heroics: you didn’t need high DPS to breeze through. Then again, I understand that VP are a lot more important as a route to gear this time around.

  3. OhkenNo Gravatar says

    I know exactly what you mean.

    The problem, as others have commented, is that 80% or more of the people doing these dungeons are grinding out valor points. They’ve done the dungeons a million times and they just want to do it efficiently. The novelty and fun is long gone.

    To contrast, in leveling dungeons, I run into much less capable groups that are nonetheless a whole lot more fun. I think the difference is that people are playing the dungeons because they feel like playing a dungeon. They could have been questing, but they decided to take a break and hit the queues. They all want to be there, and that makes all the difference.

    I wish they could group together people in the high-level dungeons that are looking more for fun than for getting their valor points efficiently. For example, maybe they could offer an option to queue for no valor, and then group those people with each other.

    • RedbeardNo Gravatar says

      I myself have found the normals (and the BC/Wrath heroics) to be a lot of fun too, because they’re populated with people who want to be there, not just to grind out points.

      Ironic that the Wrath heroics –scene of lots of this same crap– are now a lot more fun and less of a grind.
      Redbeard’s last post: We Don’t Make the Class You Play… We Make the Class You Play Better*

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      I adored leveling and dungeon running myself :) Brought my Mage up to 81 just using the Dungeon Finder. Groups are a little bit more bizarre in the leveling process but usually the real party killer is the dungeon itself: not expectations and poor player attitude.

  4. RedbeardNo Gravatar says

    Blizz really needs to separate out the people who need gear from heroics from the point farmers. And soon.

    That was the worst part of Wrath’s LFD, and Cata has simply continued the trend. If you’re made to feel like you’re an idiot because you’re actually working your way through the instance at the gear level the instance was designed for, then the asshats are doing Blizz’s competition a favor.

    You see that in all aspects of the game, which is a real shame. Sure, you have to have a thick skin, but for pete’s sake it’s a game.

    (There. Got that off my chest. That’s what I get for running AV this past lunchtime with (effectively) 39 teenagers who think farting, burping, and profanity are the height of hilarity.)

    Cass, don’t let the bastards get you down. You know your stuff, and you can do this. You should concentrate on what you did well, and you’ll pull through.
    Redbeard’s last post: We Don’t Make the Class You Play… We Make the Class You Play Better*

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      Thanks for the support Red! I know I can do this… but I think I need to do a bit of Spriest research to feel more confident in my abilities. I haven’t quite mastered the changes to the Shadow Priest and I had huge wake up call when I did a raid with a guild Shadow Priest (ok, geared and gemmed a bit beyond me but still).

  5. NaithinNo Gravatar says

    Having just recently came back to the game, I can feel your guys pain. I went back to heroics to get back into the swing of healing again and for the most part did OK but there were still a number of stupid wipes, not all of them due to changes I didn’t know about. :P

    Although one that I do recall is on the big ol’ rocky stomper guy in… uh… that one with the Priestess boss at the end and the Dragon that drops rocks on you before the rocky stomper guy. Stonecore!

    Yes, anyway, it used to be the case that he would put up a spellreflect thinger wassit when he did the voice emote, ‘Break yourself upon my body!’ which signaled an in coming paralysis. If you put a DoT up on him like a Moonfire or something, it’d land on you and the tick would break the paralysis.

    That doesn’t seem to happen no moh. It was pretty bad cos if the Paralysis ends naturally it also does some pretty big damage. :P We actually didn’t /completely/ wipe on that one, but it was one plate DPSer and myself left standing at the end. >.<
    Naithin’s last post: Belated Achievements

    • BoobaNo Gravatar says

      My money is that you had a warrior tank; the spell reflect is dispellable, and for warrior tanks their offensive dispel is front and center for damage and threat. The first time I tanked the guy on my warrior, he was half dead before my guildies started complaining in vent that they just couldn’t get the reflect to work, and he was keeling over before I connected that to Shield Slam.

      The other most likely options are somebody in the group trying to be ‘helpful’ by dispelling the spell reflect, or the selfish arcane mage who doesn’t even have any dots but does have Spell Steal, so why should he let his arcane blast stacks drop?

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      Hmmm I’m really hoping that Heroic Stonecore doesn’t pop up on my queue after reading this! I did complete H Stonecore many months ago with two wonderful Paladins from my guild (Illisis – heals, Samuraininja – tanking) and enjoyed it so much just for the company.

      Miss those guys!

      And, yes, we wiped like crazy.

  6. CynwiseNo Gravatar says

    Stories like this make me glad that I don’t run dungeons anymore. Come run more PvP, Cass! You know you want to! :)

    (/bg is about as crappy as it usually is – better in the 19 and 70 twink brackets than most, but it hasn’t gotten noticeably better or worse in this xpac.)
    Cynwise’s last post: Preparing for Patch 4.3 / Arena Season 11 PvP Gear

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      Actually Lathere and I have done a few battlegrounds. I’ve failed miserably as Shadow (although I did once find myself following another Spriest in Eye of the Storm and stood inside their shadow and used “f” to focus fire their target. I lived a bit longer that time) but had a few good matches as Disc.

      Surprisingly I feel like the Shadow Priest has changed so much for PVE and I have a lot of old habits to break and a lot to learn, but the gist of Disc PVP has remained.

  7. PapyrusNo Gravatar says

    As a player who took a 6 months break and returned 3 months ago, I feel your pain.. However, in the last two months, I did those dungeons 7 times a week EVERY week. That’ 12×7 times. 84 times! I can’t stand them any more. I hate them. Loath them

    Anything or player that makes me spend 1 minute more than I absolutely have to in one of them is annoying me to no end!

    I know it is unfair. I know that 3 months ago I was the annoying one. But now, I simply can’t stand it anymore

    Not to the point of being rude. But you know… I can’t stand it

    In a few weeks, you will be the same…

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      If you can’t stand it don’t do them anymore Papyrus! Don’t do it! I know the rewards are sweet but there has got to be a more enjoyable way to spend your time in game.

  8. FragglerokNo Gravatar says

    You are demonstrating the importance of gear in WoW. This is what happens when a nice player gets behind the gear curve. The tanks and players you describe are showing the more common attitude.

    Gear is more important than most people understand, or at least will admit.

    One consolation is that(this tier at least) this phase is very short, and you are past the worst. Subsequent Troll heroics get much easier, and the valor system this time around will gear you quickly, to the point where you vastly outgear that content.

    • ZwenNo Gravatar says

      I’m so glad I am a single spec class. I like being able to run Heroics only as long as I need to gear up one class. After that, I’m running them to help others, for money, or on an alt that I don’t care if I get max valor for the week on.

      At least people over gear the fights for the most part. It was much worse at the beginning when dps would stay in a single cata heroic for 6 hours hoping and praying that it would complete. 6 hours was my worse hang in their runs and it was for stonecore when it was annoying. 3 hours was the norm at the beginning for me as dps. I think the worst part back then is if everyone dropped group, you couldn’t decide to stay. That was a wonderful change when a single player could stay on even if everyone else left. I was in a few fail Grim Batols after the change that quit on the last boss where the next group was very happy to instantly get the last boss.

      • CassandriNo Gravatar says

        I completed Heroic Grim Batol with a group from my guild early in the expansion and it was a long and punishing affair: but mostly because we would wipe over and over again (esp the last boss – we just didn’t have high enough, fast enough burst DPS) and there was no guarantee we would be able to get it. I think we ended up subbing in a Mage to burst down one add and I had our melee DPS help me with the other. Only way we could get before they reached the eggs.

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      It’s true that Lathere and I have benefited a lot already from the acquisition of Valor Points. Unlike some (most?) players I’m unwilling to do something that I don’t enjoy so we might push a bit harder to run some entry raids. Now that is something I probably should study up on!

  9. CourtneyNo Gravatar says

    This makes me very sad as a tank.

    I’m fairly diligent about learning everything possible before going into a new place mainly because I do queue as a tank, but partially because I know I’ll take a lot of crap if I don’t. But I don’t think it’s at all excusable to treat anyone like this.

    Unfortunately the fear of saying something creates a situation where the player new to the dungeon/encounter/difficulty doesn’t speak up. If nobody speaks up, I run the dungeon like I’m running it with guildmates. I assume everyone knows what’s going on and do get frustrated when someone just repeatedly misses the mark.

    Usually after a wipe the first player to die will say “Sorry, never done this before” and I feel like a massive jerk for getting annoyed. Now if it looks like someone is a little unaware of their surroundings, I ask in party chat if everyone’s done the fight.

    This of course is a double-edged sword, because the second I stop pulling someone inevitably spams “go”, “just go”, “omfg GO.”

    /sigh
    Courtney’s last post: Using The Raid Finder To Get T13 Set Bonuses Quickly

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      Frankly I don’t know how “nice” tanks survive in the role: you must develop a thick skin very quickly I imagine.

      I definitely felt that speaking up about our inexperience made more problems than it solved. It was better when we didn’t say anything, even with it was “discovered” that we were learning the instance. I think this trend towards “gogogogoog” is just horrible. And I never assume that the tank should know everything. Although I do think that most max level tanks would prefer to queue as DPS to learn all the max level instances before queuing as tank. Shame that our own social behavior has brought us to that.

  10. reiNo Gravatar says

    You are not alone.this xpac has seen the worst come out in players. So much so that in our guild for heroics and trollics we run with all guild or majority guild. Even our firelands raiders wont do lfg without guildies. Its very sad.my suggestion keep running them till you get your sea legs back and don’t let the get to you. Or get your guildies to help. If you take the high road and be the better player it will be tough but the end result is that there will be nothing to report about you and you will know that you are better than those people who are probably just as mean in real life as they are in game. Karma is a bitch and everyone gets what’s coming to them eventually

    Rei

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      Perhaps the successful implementation of the Dungeon Finder would always have led us to this point. Perhaps it’s the incentive/VP/raid drop situation.

      I still hope that they will add in Klep’s very very smart idea of grouping us with fellow realm players whenever possible. On the rare occasion that I am grouped with someone from my realm I usually recognise them. Sometimes I don’t know the name at all and they recognise me! Lots of name changing and race changing and server back-and-forth transferring going on.

      • TheanorakNo Gravatar says

        I think this is already implemented, actually – if there are people from your realm in the queue, then you’ll be matched up with them if possible.

        Personally, I remain convinced that the biggest problem with the dungeon finder is that the wow community has brainwashed itself into believing that everyone-except-me who queues for a random is a) probably a terrible player, and more importantly b) a complete horror of a human being, and set their attitudes and tolerance levels accordingly.

        I think it’s a great shame. By responding in this way, we allow the small group of idiots who *like* to grief other players to get exactly what they want: maximum disruption for the most people.
        Theanorak’s last post: Class feedback, 4.3 and other wibbling

  11. ShaftyNo Gravatar says

    “I hate feeling as though I need to be carried. Feeling as though I am being carried.”

    Well, you were being carried. When you show up at a fight and you don’t outgear it and you don’t know the mechanics, and you’re expecting that other players who have better gear and more experience are going to kill the boss despite your poor play, that’s kind of the dictionary definition of being carried.

    Naturally you’re not going to outgear the instance as you’re running it to get the gear. But there’s no excuse for not knowing the boss abilities and strategies. That’s 100% on you. And you may not be aware of this since you’ve been away from the game for awhile, but in patch 4.2 they introduced the “Dungeon Journal” feature (hotkay is Shift-J. Looks like a book with a skull on it on your menu bar). When you click that, it brings up all the cataclysm dungeons and raids, and shows you each boss. When you click on the boss, you get a description of all their abilities. Now you don’t even have to alt-tab out of the game to look up what to do on wowhead or something.

    While no, I don’t think other players should be rude to you, it’s also poor form to go into a fight unprepared. I don’t mind when I have another player in my party who maybe doesn’t do a lot of damage because they don’t have the gear. The boss might die a little more slowly, sure. But so long as it dies. And it won’t die if the other players don’t know the fight mechanics. You can’t help not having the best gear, but you can help being unprepared.

    • Herr DracheNo Gravatar says

      @ Shafty, I’m sorry, but I disagree. They were not being carried.
      They didn’t know every nuance of all the boss encounters. They did know the majority of the mechanics, and just needed a quick refresher on a detail or two.

      Even if you would expect everyone to read up and memorize every boss encounter on, let’s say “Tankspot”, the encounters have been changed in some small detail. Some bosses don’t self-heal anymore, some other boss’ gun barrage now works differently from the beginning, some spike damage doesn’t happen (or again, does), etc.

      Bundle that with a lot of “Oh heck, just heal through it” attitude, and even the ‘old timers’ don’t really know all the details anymore – because a lot of the details have become trivialized over the last X patches/nerfs/gear upgrades etc.

      Heck, there are instances that pop so rarely for me that I’ve forgotten where the bosses actually are! If I would pause for 5 minutes before the run, saying “sorry, I have to consult my cliff notes for this”, would that be OK?

      @ Cassandri and Lathere:
      I feel for you. I never wanted to get sick and tired of re-re-re-running those instances, so I took it much slower than others, and as a result, I’m not prepared to tank for a group of “gogogo-ers”. I’m especially not prepared for the behavior that I’ve seen in dungeons ever since Wrath, or rather, the Icecrown Heroics, which actually needed DPS to pay attention, too.

      I’d offer to tank for you any day, but sadly, I think you’re playing the wrong faction, I fear ;)

      As a final note – try not to be as hard on yourself as you seem to be. Google “Dunning–Kruger effect”, go to the Wikipedia page or others – it might just explain a world of things ;)

      Keep on playing, keep on having fun!

      • CassandriNo Gravatar says

        The good thing about PVE in World of Warcraft is that, honestly, when you’ve been around long enough there is no new mechanic.

        I’ll always be shaky on the first attempt, but it doesn’t take long to go “oh, he does a 360 like Lurker” or, as I mentioned in the article, “he has a Shadow Crash” and immediately understand the mechanics used in previous boss fights now applied to the current fight. It does tend to make the learning process faster. Unfortunately it can also lead to overconfidence and a sincere dislike of pre-dungeon-study! I think some players fear improvisation instead of enjoying it! The best groups improvise well and learn as they go.

        I had the good fortune to start raiding seriously in Ulduar under the leadership of Classic/BC raiders and they way the explained every fight was to recall: x ability from this BC boss, y ability from this other BC boss etc. Was a really goddamn fast way to understand what was in store.

        I’ll bet the Wrath to Cata raiders do the same :D

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      I have a much different definition of being carried: it’s originally used to describe a low level player entering a dungeon with a much higher level player. The higher level player does the work of the two combined and the low level player is only there to pick up loot.

      There is no expectation that the low level “carried” player will fight. And there is rarely any formal group structure or roles assigned.

      A group of 5 players put together using the Dungeon Finder is NEVER a carry. The Dungeon Finder does not let you skew the party composition by putting a Ret Pally level 65 with two players in their 20s for a Stockades run.

      We do seem to differ in opinion on the mechanics and pre-dungeon study time. I don’t believe in it. People learn best from first hand experience. Doesn’t matter what you read, you’ll learn it when you do it and the first time is messy.

      That said, I do every dungeon I can while I’m leveling (so I’ve done them all on Normal when they have Normal mode). The dungeon journal is useful to double check things, but it’s not a strategy.

  12. OleanderNo Gravatar says

    I always wondered why folks would struggle (or fail) in silence (and potentially wipe the group) than say up-front they don’t know the fight. I’m happy to explain fights to folks that don’t know them. (It’s even practical; it increases our chances at succeeding the first time!)

    But seeing the attitudes you received when admitting ignorance demonstrates why people are hesitant… so in future lfd runs I do, I’ll make sure to let folks know I’m an explainer.

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      It’s very hard for me not to fess up and ask for help immediately when I’m not 100% sure or are in a new situation: after all, I would prefer other players ask for help from me when the tables are turned.

      But, yes, you and I seem to be in the minority. You really are treated better when you say nothing.

  13. TaitrinaNo Gravatar says

    Hey I just read this post from a link on WowInsider. I don’t know if you’re on EU or US but if you’re on EU I think all the battlegroups have merged together now for dungeons. I’m on Argent Dawn EU and I’d gladly run with you. The most important thing for me when running a dungeon is that people are pleasant and polite. I make a point of using everybody’s names rather than class or roles. Also, if someone admits that they are new then I thank them and make sure to go over anything they need to know. After all everyone was new once.

    I think it’s disgusting the way that the community is going. People are so impatient and so rude and it’s just so unnecessary. It can’t be fun for them and it’s definitely not fun for other people. I just really don’t understand why people do it. It makes the game a chore sometimes rather than enjoyable and as it’s a game that sorts of defeats the object. Anyway I think you’re doing everything right, it’s others that are wrong.

    This is the first time I’ve been inspired enough to leave a comment on a blog post that I’ve read like this. What you wrote just really resonated with me and I wanted you to know that you’re not alone. Thanks :)

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      Thanks for the comment Taitrina! I’m on a US (Oceanic) server – Barthilas. Unfortunately I think that makes us completely out of reach in terms of grouping up.

      It’s still good to hear that other people feel the same way, or experience the same thing. It reminds me that just because one person is a little terse or frustrated by my inexperience it doesn’t mean that other PUGees I meet necessarily feel the same.

  14. WhigNo Gravatar says

    Good post and great responses.

    I just wanted to add, though, that I’ve been running the new 5-mans on the PTR with the LFD and having really good experiences.

    People are patient, helpful, and really interested in figuring out the fights and mastering them. You can even wipe without ragequits!

    Not sure if this is a factor of the population on the PTR, but to me it inforces the idea that you will have better experiences PUGing current content. So don’t lose hope! We need people like you in the LFD, and will also in the LFR!

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      I think the attitude when the content is new is vastly different: more improvisation and a willingness to learn. It makes sense: all 5 players know that they will be learning something new when they zone in.

      I guess, as Kurn pointed out above, that ZG and ZA have been run so many many times by players that it’s become a chore now and when experienced players zone in they just want it done because it’s already not enjoyable.

      Lathere and I knew that we were way behind the curve but I didn’t think that would make such a difference: people reach level 85 for the very first time every day. There are always going to be new people in LFG. We are just two more.

  15. ChrysethNo Gravatar says

    I’m also here from wowinsider. I understand a lot about how you’re feeling with stepping into this stuff — I only fairly recently got into ZA/ZG myself and so far only on dps alts because I just never felt comfortable taking the plunge into them and finally had to force myself to. Haven’t healed em yet for all that fiveman healing is one of the funnest things in the game. There are a few things I did to make myself more comfy getting into heroics and then troll dungeons, though, and some of them might be of use to you.

    http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/robbossmods1.aspx — this addon is great, though if you use it you’ll probably want to disable the tips in its options or else it’ll helpfully spam your group with things like “Everyone out of the dead zone!” “Everyone into the dead zone!” It’s got descriptions of boss fights that you can send to your group or whisper to someone or just display to yourself; for a quick refresher on “what’s this guy do?” it’s pretty good. There are a few places it’s just plain wrong (doesn’t mention Vanessa vanCleef explodes, claims Jin’do’s ‘get in the bubble NOW’ attack is a channeled spell) but for the most part it’s spot on. I liked it for training wheels, at least when groups gave me a chance to review before pulling, and I like it now because it lets me fill anyone new to the instance in on wtf’s happening without having to type it all out manually.

    Also, I said I’ve been in ZA/ZG only on dps alts. My first time there was on my hunter who I felt skilled on but didn’t feel… emotionally invested in, like I do my main. This might be a weird psychological thing you guys don’t share, but it was easier for me to relax and concentrate more on performing well than on gibbering to myself about how fail I am for not being perfect already on a character I didn’t expect to be perfect on. So I’ve gotten to the point where I feel 100% fine in ZA/ZG on my rogue who I rolled a month and a half ago, even got him the bear mount! And my mage and hunter are fine too! But yeah, still haven’t healed em. Anyway if you guys have other 85s you can get used to randoming on, it might or might not help you feel more relaxed on your mains too.

    Sometimes I get told by random group members that I’m pro and awesome. I file those compliments away for the inevitable times I screw up and everything goes wrong on a run and I hear, you know, other things. It’s not complete weatherproofing but it helps.

    Hang in there. It will get better — if you keep queueing, you’ll get to the point you understand what’s going on and how to avoid bad stuff in every dungeon you spend much time in. The troll heroics are fantastic fun.

    I don’t know what realm you’re on or how you feel about realid, but if you’re on US servers I have an 85 rogue A-side and then a stable of 85s on H (no tanks geared for ZA/ZG but my best mate’s a tankadin I want to rope into going into them anyway). If you want to try realid grouping with random blog-reading strangers, I’d be delighted to go with y’all. Just know that for some reason Vortex Pinnacle does not play well with how my paranoid roommate has the internet connection set up, so random heroics are a bit of a crapshoot for me.

    Regardless! Good luck in your slaying of internet dragons.

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      Thanks Chryseth! Wow you really are at a similar point to Lathere and I.

      I will most definitely check out that link – it sounds like something a bit more meaningful and real (although nothing beats actual advice or instructions given by party members). I have since writing this article installed Dues Vox Encounters, which was my raid warnings addon of choice in Wrath, so it might have some Heroic warnings set up too.

      Both Lathere and I are playing our 2nd characters as mains: and hell yes we are emotionally invested!

      I started as a Rogue and raided half of BC in that role but always felt awkward. Lathere started as a Warrior. The Shadow Priest suits me to a tee (I leveled her intending to heal but at level 60 gave up and went with my gut, chuckling all the way to 70 and DoTing everything in sight – I am a Shadow Priest and most definitely a Priest all the way). Lathere still gets upset about the loss of her Tree Form.

      We both are very attached to our characters – and both of us can improvise well when things get messed up. I can’t imagine how much harder it would be to be playing an Alt attempting these dungeons right now.

  16. SussNo Gravatar says

    I’d like to explain this from the perspective of the impatient player. For me, the issue isn’t so much whether a new player should know the mechanics. Instead, the problem is that in my experience the vast majority of unfamiliar players will never be able to navigate the challenges of the dungeons successfully. The author raided in BC and is almost certainly well above average and was able to learn on the fly.

    Weekly heroics are nothing more than glorified daily quests, and wiping on content that is 6-10 months old is incredibly frustrating. It may have only been a few wipes for author, but those may have been the 100th wipes for people who run the content every week, and the frustration only increases after every wipe.

    Blizzard wanted to turn up the difficulty, but that was foolish in an LFD world. With random, anonymous groups, months of wiping tests everyone, especially when the choice of content is quite limited. I gave up running random heroics months ago because it wasn’t worth the frustration. Healing pre-nerf Al’Akir with my guild, was much, much easier than healing some of the random normal heroics. That’s absurd.

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      Thanks for the comment Suss. Lathere and I raided over two expansions: and we were very serious about it in Wrath of the Lich King: raiding at the top of progression and always on hardmodes.

      I think my experience on the 2nd boss of H Blackrock Cavern is telling: sure I needed 1 go to master the beam-interception on Corla. But I *nailed* it after that. I know that I will eventually master every single one of these Heroic fights, but I’m being treated like I’m a no hoper.

      Tell me what old title to wear to prove that I can master content? I honestly don’t know anymore. I’m currently wearing Argent Defender (complete TOC 10 Heroic with 0 wipes in 10 man only gear) but I don’t think it’s well known enough. Immortal? Guildies have suggested Champion of the Naaru but I’m not as proud of that achievement as some others – it just seems to have some credibility.

      • SussNo Gravatar says

        Naaru is probably the best choice, but I don’t think it will matter. I try to be a nice person but for every player like you who’s capable, there are at least a dozen who just can’t rub their stomachs and pat their heads at the same time; they’re skill-capped. Unfortunately, the community has learned that it is far more efficient to badger, cajole, and humiliate the bad players in the hope of keeping them from queuing in the future. MMO players always find the most efficient path, and in the Cataclysm world, it’s much more efficient to badmouth than it is to teach.

        I think the expectation today is to watch videos of dungeon fights before going queuing.

  17. AzurielNo Gravatar says

    I agree with Shafty, actually.

    Nobody wants to tell me what to do. They just want me to give up and get out of their way so they can be finished – and rewarded – faster.

    Wait another six months from now, when the shoe is on the other foot, and let’s see how much patience you have for the never-ending stream of new players from hundreds of random servers who expect all the fights to be explained to them each time. It’s great that you want to learn, but it isn’t great that complete strangers have to pay for your mistakes.

    The solution is actually something you did already: run new heroics with your guildmates. I have no problem explaining fights half a dozen times for new guildmates, because I know that explaining it will have permanent effects; next time I run with them I won’t have to explain it. That is not the case in LFD. It never ends.

    But I can promise you I never, ever, treated my fellow team players with disrespect or impatience. No matter how green they were (like being asked where my Tier 8 came from from a fresh 80 when Ulduar was the new big thing!).

    It is somewhat amusing that you brought this up, because LFD didn’t exist until Tier 10, i.e. Icecrown. When there was no LFD, of course it benefited everyone to explain fights, because you were likely going to run into those players again in future heroic runs. I prefer the post-LFD world because I can get runs when I want, even at 3AM, but there definitely has been consequences.
    Azuriel’s last post: Butchered

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      I am quite serious when I say that, unlike you, I really DID enjoy playing with new players when I was overgeared and experienced.

      I like meeting new players. I like/used to like meeting new players through the Dungeon Finder. When I was raiding and most of my raid lockouts were saved to guild raids I used the Dungeon Finder to play with strangers because I enjoyed it.

      I cannot disagree strongly enough with something you said: ” It’s great that you want to learn, but it isn’t great that complete strangers have to pay for your mistakes. ”

      When you queue for a Heroic you should expect to wipe. Heroics are meant to be hard. When you start a raid you should expect to wipe. The game should be challenging and the occasional wipe is not making another person “pay” for a mistake. Wiping is part of the game and part of the content. A group can wipe even when everyone knows what they’re doing but the group members are unfamiliar to each other.

      It sounds as though you go in expecting a fast, smooth dungeon with no mistakes and anything else is a failure or a waste of your game time. I take the exact opposite approach: wiping is part of the game and is not something to be feared, avoided yes, but not at all costs!

      As for my comment regarding Tier 8 that could, quite possibly, have happened at the start of Tier 10 or, more likely, you’re right it was pre-Dungeon Finder when we just put together groups using good old Trade Chat. Or before that Looking For More, but I think they disabled in Wrath prior to the launch of the Dungeon Finder.

      And I certainly wouldn’t treat a player from another server differently than a player from my own… new is new either way.

    • LathNo Gravatar says

      I respectfully disagree – I’ve been on the other foot in previous expansions and while I occasionally sighed to myself when doing a Halls of Reflections I always championed the newer players against tanks or dps who were being impatient and rude about dps levels or not understanding a fight mechanic.

      The dungeons and heroics are there first and foremost for players who have finished leveling and now need gear to improve their character. There is never an excuse for rudeness in my book when a raider is entering the new players/alts territory, never.

      Yes Blizzard have made it so that raiders need to do dungeons but raiders need to remember that’s just a hook to make sure that experience players are helping out the new players NOT so that you can be an asshole to them!
      Lath’s last post: Normal, Heroic and Slightly More Heroic

    • TheanorakNo Gravatar says

      But this can be easily reversed:

      If you don’t want to run heroics (or any kind of content) with people who don’t know it already — whether that’s because you don’t want to explain the fights, you don’t want to wipe or because you want the quickest possible route to the VP cap — then **you** should only run with members of your guild.

      When you queue for a random dungeon you’re implicitly agreeing to take whoever you get: maxed-out raiders looking for a quck dungeon to cap VP for the week; experienced players looking to gear up an alt; first-timers who might never have seen this difficulty level before, or who might not have visited this instance previously. If you don’t like the group you’re in, you can of course drop out, but that’s on you.
      Theanorak’s last post: Class feedback, 4.3 and other wibbling

  18. HestiahNo Gravatar says

    I was one of the first healers to hit 85 in my guild, 3 days after Cataclysm went live. I ran dungeon after dungeon learning all the dungeond and bosses. Then heroics. And inevitably Trollroics when those came out. I empathise with you because there was a point when we all had to learn them, regardless of gear.

    My only issue with newer players are the ones who don’t say they don’t know the fights (the opposite of you). I actually prefer people to say something and have NO problem explaining bosses or marking targets. And the people like you describe anger me. Because I will say something. I won’t let poor demeaning behavior go. They can vote to kick me if they don’t wanna hear me, but my high ilvl self usually gets newer (and lower ilvl) toons. That’s fine. But tanks… The bigger issue seems to be tanks, their attitude, and entitlement.

    So sorry to hear how badly you were treated.
    Hestiah’s last post: Naked Dungeon Challenge #1

  19. NickHNo Gravatar says

    Don’t worry about it. There are so many assholes in dungeons these days I struggle regularly to PUG. In fact one of my guildies flat out refuses to PUG because of these idiots. I myself pretty much refuse to PUG the troll dungeons. And generally I don’t really run dungeons unless it’s with guildies. My main is a healer so I have gone through all kinds of crazy groups and pretty much experienced the blunt end of many bad attitudes. But I try not to let myself lower to their level and if it really is too bad to stay then I /leave. Stick with it though. There are good people out there. Obviously reading up on fights does help too but the fact that people have a go at you when you ask for help is just unacceptable. I have recently started running hc dungeons as a new rogue and the switch I have had to go through from healer to melee basically means learning some of these fights over again. So I can really feel your pain.

    • EvlyxxNo Gravatar says

      The issue you described pre-dates Cataclysm, I believe that the issue has been in the game for a long time. I rarely PvP because quite frankly I suck and see very similar behaviour from a small minority of the players in the battlegrounds and I think it is probably this section of the community that has polluted the PvE side of the game as well especially when the Dungeon Finder made it as easy to get into a 5 man as it is to get into BGs and gave rise to what I have dubbed the “gogogo” player type who thinks that their amazing gear makes them:

      a) Better than you;
      b) An expert on WoW;
      c) Unworthy of helping lesser mortals;

      In reality these tend to be:
      a) impatient asses;
      b) from guilds that either don’t raid or are not well progressed;
      c) looking for an easy ride to their VP;
      d) DPS as they don’t want the responsibility of tanking or healing;

      My main is a healer, I play many alts and all are well geared (enough for “Random Zs) but my ability with them varies. I play in a casual social guild with players of all abilities and gear levels and I know that not all are experts on dungeons, I like to invest time in people who are less knowledgeable about things than I am. My life experience has proven that time spent now is always less than overall time lost by not doing so. This ethos works even if you don’t expect to encounter your pupil again as you’ll hopefully educate them to assist others and you never know if the next person you meet that doesn’t need help was someone indirectly influenced by your earlier efforts.

      But for the “gogogo” types I have little patience and while I rarely vote kick people it is these players that I use the feature as I find they tend to be destroying the fun of the game for myself and other group members. When tanking for these types I have a particularly devious way of dealing with them, when they repeatedly say “gogogo” I respond “OK, I’ll go, have fun.”, /wave and leave the group.

  20. Ethan "Aestu" FarberNo Gravatar says

    Comment deleted due to personal attacks and trolling nature of the post.
    - Lathere

  21. ““I’m sorry Blizzard is forcing you to run heroics you’re overgeared for for points, but I’m doing them, not for the points, but because I’m doing them at the gear level they’re designed for so that I can get upgrades.” this.

    I think ANYONE after running the same Heroic 9999 times for that last piece of gear is gonna be a little annoyed. I always enjoy getting fun groups though. They are out there. I had a group and we wiped the last boss because of my healer not casting dispels.. but we were laughing and joking through the whole thing and had a good time.

    I also ran a bunch of runs with some friends for the achievement for like heroic dungeon master of cata or something stupid like that and we had a great time.. I even tanked some of it with my under-geared tank.

    Attitude makes such a difference.. and I do not think your wrong to be pissed at these nubs that are all GOGOGOGO faster faster faster! It makes the game totally not fun.

  22. Ethan "Aestu" FarberNo Gravatar says

    The question should really be asked: what, materially, did deleting the post get you?

    If it did not, materially, get you anything, then you should ask why you felt compelled to do it.

    People will resist hearing what they do not like to hear, precisely because it is the truth of the matter. You blamed others in the group, but you’re resistant to receiving an alternative interpretation to the effect that you two were to blame.

    Why?

    • MitchellNo Gravatar says

      You are wrong. If you want to argue from original intent, Blizzard built this tool (LFD) to be used by all players. If you don’t like the players in LFD, then you should gtfo. Cass is a player, and Cass is in the right to be able to expect to use the tool provided for her by Blizzard.

      If you only want smooth no-wipe runs, then get your raid team to run them with you without LFD. If you queue via LFD, then you are agreeing to whomever Blizzard decides to put into your group. Put on your big-boy pants and deal.

  23. AliPallyNo Gravatar says

    My biggest bug-bear in heroics (apart from rude people, of course!) is that players who don’t know the boss fights don’t say so.
    Why are people so scared of saying ‘I haven’t done this fight before’? Yes, there will be idiots who have no patience, and don’t want to waste time telling you the tactics, but those same sort of people are going to react badly to you if you cause a wipe anyway, so what harm in pointing it out? Anyone reasonable should accomodate you; anyone unreasonable, well you are probably better off finding some friendlier people to pug with anyway.

  24. Carlos EdwardNo Gravatar says

    I haven’t done this fight before’? Yes, there will be idiots who have no patience, and don’t want to waste time telling you the tactics, but those same sort of people are going to react badly, thanks for the post.
    Carlos Edward’s last post: How to invest in forex

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