HoTs and DoTs: A Restoration Druid and Shadow Priest

10 Man Drama in a 25 Man Guild

Professor Putricide 10 Man

How NOT to Professor Putricide (10 man)

In Vitare we don’t seem to fall prey to loot drama. I remember that there was a little dissent over a gun in Ulduar, and whether Warriors should be allowed to outbid Hunter trial raiders.

But we most definitely do fall prey to 10 man drama. Are you in a 25 man guild? How many times have 10 mans been the source of your guild drama? I’ll bet a hell of a lot of the time.

It doesn’t really surprise me anymore. Splitting your 25 man group into two teams (and lets not forget the 5 people who are completely left out) and pitting them against the same content, often side by side at the same time, is bound to cause conflict.

Vitare has one fairly steady 10 man group. Not two, just one.That’s because:

  1. A percentage of the guild don’t have extra nights/time to give to 10 man raiding
  2. A percentage of the guild just don’t enjoy 10 mans as much
  3. The left over 15 players (not already in a 10 man) aren’t a very good class/role makeup suitable for a second 10 man raid

I’m okay with there being only one 10 man group. I believe that the raiders who are the most determined to do 10 mans are already in this group.

Four nights is enough raiding for me. I don’t enjoy repeating content in 10 mans. And of the left over 15 guild raiders 3 of them are Priests. That’s a lot of Priests for a 10 man. There are a couple, maybe five, raiders who want to complete 10 man Icecrown Citadel every week, even though they’re not in the 10 man group. Those players usually PuG 10 man ICC.

Occasionally (usually at the start of a Patch when Emblems are important) the 15 left overs will try and group together to complete the occasional 10 man run. When we do, it’s usually pretty enjoyable and it’s nice to bond and build a bit of camaraderie with your guildies. But the group makeup is terrible. I’ve written about it before in posts, but we learned the hard way that you just can’t really complete some hard modes without a certain class or with an imbalanced ranged to melee ratio.

Because these runs are infrequent it’s not uncommon to depend on someone to bring an alt or play an offspec in order to meet the 2 tank, 3 healers and 5 DPS (preferably a nice mix of ranged/melee) format. But this further weakens the skill and success of the group.

To completely change the topic, I think I also need to tell you a bit about my Wrath of the Lich King Wish List: the incomplete achievements/encounters that I want to do before Cataclysm is released:

  1. Earn an Ironbound Protodrake
    Completing the last few Ulduar hard modes has been number one on my list since… well… since Ulduar was released. Unfortunately they just keep releasing new raid content which really messes this up.
  2. Kill Anub’arak in Trial of the Grand Crusader
    I don’t want to leave it at 4/5 ToGC. So close yet so far!
  3. Earn the Champion of Ulduar title
    This one would be nice, but I’d be quite happy to go without. Can be completed on 10 man over multiple lockouts but requires people to stay alive.
  4. Earn an Bloodbathed Frostwyrm
    This requires me to complete all the Heroic mode fights as well as a bunch of achievements in Icecrown Citadel on 10 or 25 man. Don’t think our 25 man group will take the time to do the non-heroic achievements… not when then 10 man team is working on it already.

And that’s pretty much it. The first two items on my Wish List are 25 man raiding achievements requiring, you guessed it, 25 people.

When Trial of the Crusader was first released, when it was gated and not taking up much raid time, there was still a lot of interest in completing the Ulduar hard modes for the mount. On one occasion we even went back and wiped on Razorscale to get Iron Dwarf, Medium Rare. On that same ID we pushed through and finally got I Choose You, Steelbreaker. Then we started ToGC and had no more time for Ulduar.

We never went back.

We were stuck at 4/5 ToGC when Icecrown Citadel came out. And nobody wanted to wipe in ToGC anymore – certainly not on Anub’arak (does anyone love this fight?!). But after our first Lich King kill we had a couple hours left of raiding for the week and went back to give Anubarak another go. We wiped. And it was painful.

We never went back.

Now I’ve given you all that history, let me tell you about Monday night. We finished ICC earlier than expected with a couple hours still left in our raiding schedule at the end of weekly lockout. We knew that we were going to kill the Lich King earlier than anticipated – our first attempt brought us straight into phase 3, but we had a few too many DPS dead to keep up. The night was still early.

Some players, like me, were pretty excited. A chance to raid something other than ICC 25!

I started throwing out ideas in Raid and Guild chat, even before we came back from our first wipe: “Ulduar here we come!”

Some other raiders were getting excited too. I heard someone say the words “Rusted Protodrake”, another player suggested “TOGC for BiS trinkets” and someone else chimed in “ooooh maybe we can finish our 10 man”. We killed the Lich King and ran around Dalaran waiting to hear what our next destination would be.

An officer suggested that we do a quick clear of the 4 farm bosses in ToGC, joining up with a PuG group that was forming on the server at same time. It was put to vote. Just over half the raid said yes, several did not vote and perhaps 4 or 5 said no.

We then voted on Ulduar hardmodes. Same response: about half the raid said yes, several did not vote and perhaps 4 or 5 said no.

There were a few more “comon let’s finish our 10 man” suggestions from the players who are in the core 10 man group. I could feel my chance at ever achieving my wish list items slipping away – when would we next get the chance to revisit old content during our raid schedule?

“Naxx 25 Immortal run?” I elaborated over vent: “God I just want a change of scenery – anything but Icecrown Citadel”. My Naxx 25 suggestion was also put to vote, although I never intended that we actually run it, I was just mad keen to do a 25 man raid other than Icecrown Citadel.

Most of the vote came back no or unanswered. A surprising five or six were keen. The same four or five people who voted no to all the previous votes voted no yet again.

Eventually the vote turn to “Who wants to do ICC 10?”. The same four or five people who had nixed every suggestion thus far finally voted yes. A few people who aren’t in the regular guild 10 man also said yes, which I thought was a bit strange. Did they think they were going to be invited to the 10 man ICC run – which was a continuation? I don’t think so.

By now the 25 man raid group was in shambles. It was announced over Vent that we would be disbanding to do ICC 10. And then it got interesting. Drama. Everyone had an opinion on the decision and let loose. There were arguments over Vent, arguments in guild chat, arguments in raid chat and, I’m sure, arguments over whisper and in Officer chat.

To sum up, the arguments were like so:

PRO splitting down to a 10 man
——————————————-

  1. Never enough time on Friday night (the scheduled 10 man night) to complete it
  2. 10 man progression kills are for the guild
  3. 10 man heroic loot helps the guild in 25 mans
  4. 10 man progression helps us learn those encounters for 25 man
  5. The 10 man group is close to earning their Bloodbathed Frostwryms
  6. There’s no loot worth having in ToGC
  7. You can pug ToC/ToGC
  8. Mounts are a waste of time
  9. Ulduar hardmodes are a waste of time

CONS to splitting down to a 10 man
——————————————

  1. Only 10 people (at most 20) can participate
  2. Not the right classes/roles left over to form a second 10 man
  3. 10 man progression has no meaning in a 25 man progression guild
  4. 10 man progression loot is equivalent to our regular raid gear and worse than our 277 raid gear
  5. 10 man progression kills only teach the 10 players involved
  6. What makes the ICC mount more important than the Ulduar mount?
  7. A small number of raiders (healers most especially) still need loot from ToGC loot – even with ICC loot factored in
  8. You can pug ToGC but you can’t ensure loot stays within the guild
  9. Completing Ulduar hardmodes and ToGC hardmodes still give us ranking points

The most interesting thing, in my opinion, is that almost everyone took a side. I discovered so much more about the people that I raid with in 15 minutes of arguing than I have raiding with them for months. I lost respect for some players. I gained respect for others. I revised my mental list of who I could approach for help, and who I shouldn’t ever bother to ask – unless there’s something in it for them.

I learned who had their head in the clouds: the people who thought there were two 10 man groups and also the players who thought that we could even form a second group considering that we only had 2 main spec tanks online.

I discovered who can actually argue intelligently. I discovered who was quick to realise that they had walked into a political mine field and inadvertently said the wrong thing… and who was slow. I discovered who was particularly hot tempered (to be honest, I really was just confirming something I already knew).

I also discovered, without a doubt, that I could kiss any hope of completing my top two wish list items for Wrath of the Lich King goodbye.

Raiding is selfish. The best way to get people to do what you want is to lure them in by promising them the chance at something that will benefit them as individuals. Most of the time that’s loot. Occasionally you can try and find large groups of people who want a particular achievement or mount, but that’s much harder.

But raiding in a guild is a long term selfish proposition. One night you might do something that has no personal benefit to you (which is why I even bother to show up on our Lich King nights) because eventually you know that other people will still show up when you need something in the future.

There is no item in ToGC that I need. I hate Trial of the Crusader. I hate the instance. But I would have gone and completed ToGC if our healers say there are BiS trinkets for them in there. The last time we went I remember how thrilled one of our new Mages was when got a new weapon and cloak – infinitely superior to what he had. Why deny another player, a guild mate, someone I might even call a friend, that thrill?

I don’t believe that the players who refused to do anything except ICC 10 are loot whores – which is what they were called by others. However, I do think that they were weighing their own wants and desires much more highly than those of others. They waved off the notion that others might need loot in ToGC. I think they waved it away in order to make their conscience clearer, their argument stronger.

I’m not a member of the core 10 man ICC group. And I just can’t fathom how their successes really benefit me. The best gear for us comes from ICC 25 hard modes. Perhaps there is some BiS items from ICC 10. But those items will only ever go to the players in that 10 man. Yes, I do believe that the 10 man group is getting a bit more practice at difficult encounters but the 10 man group isn’t leagues ahead of our 25 man progression – actually they’re exactly the same right now.

And, most importantly, on the rare occasion that the 10 man group had more knowledge than the rest of us this just made our 25 man wiping more upsetting and frustrating. The 10 man players were irritated that we couldn’t do something so simple, and the rest of us were left feeling stupid for being unable to do something that was, as we were told, simple.

So what did I end up doing on Monday night? Well I didn’t log off in a rage (I was too disappointed). A few of us banded together out of boredom, called in some favors, called a healer and begged them to log in, had a few people swap to alts and eventually ended up with a 10 man raid. We ran ICC 10 to fill in time. We completed it. We had a good time, and our alt tank got some gear, but I’d be happy to never do it again.

Perhaps I should try and find some individual achievement worth having and stick that on my Wish List. Right now Cassandri the Insane seems more achievable than anything on my Wish List.

If I only count on myself, then it just might happen.

28 Responses to “10 Man Drama in a 25 Man Guild”

  1. SpinksNo Gravatar says

    “And, most importantly, on the rare occasion that the 10 man group had more knowledge than the rest of us this just made our 25 man wiping more upsetting and frustrating.”

    I hear you. I used to really enjoy progression nights, but now it’s a torment of me struggling to learn fights instantly while people who have 10 man groups gripe at every single mistake.

    I honestly don’t enjoy raiding any more, and that’s the big reason why.
    .-= Spinks’s last blog: Why the mobile auction house will be good for WoW. =-.

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      I’m so glad to hear that I’m not the only one who feels this way. But I knew it wasn’t something that I made up in my mind. I was definitely behind the learning curve.

      When we got to Heroic Rotface after a few wipes I made some comment about not getting to DPS because the giant slime pools were following me around the room. There was about 5 seconds of silence on Vent before someone filled me in “um Cass they go around in a clockwise direction”. Apparently this was assumed to be common knowledge :(

      • SpinksNo Gravatar says

        *vibes* That’s miserable.

        I do honestly wish I had the chance to learn the fights with a small group of people all learning at the same time. I’m sure it is more fun. And I also understand how they get frustrated at people making mistakes in our 25 man runs where they’re way ahead on hard modes in 10 mans.

        But unlike your guys, our 10 man core is a fixed group that isn’t interested in taking other people unless one of their regulars can’t make it. I just can’t see things going well for the 25 man group in Cataclsym, this can’t really last.
        .-= Spinks’s last blog: Why the mobile auction house will be good for WoW. =-.

  2. JorgeNo Gravatar says

    Hi Cass.

    I completely understand from where you coming from. I belong as you do to a 25 man raiding guild that does 10 man ICC on the side. My group is probably the only group who managed to kill the Lich King and enter the so called Heroics ICC 10, of which i am really not a fan. I hate them and though it might be fun to do achievements for that X mount. Let me say i go on the required nights because I want to help them in hopes that one day in a far far future i can ask for help and this people will remember i stuck with them, and give me some aid.

    I doubt it though. Our guild took a week off recently because the raid leader considered the options and saw that we were burned out. Why because we just don’t make progress in our Lich King nights. Sadly since i am part of the 10 man group and i have seen the phases and the fight from start to finish, I can relate to why your guilds core 10 man saids its so simple in some boss fights. But what they should do is what we did, (though it hasn’t helped yet but we believe it will in long run) we started bring 2 or more people to our 10 man lich kng kills, so they could see the fight, see how we handle everything from defile to the diseases and sort open the eyes of people who have tunnel vision.

    In a way its being proactive and helping any way we can. Our Lich King road block will be there next Tuesday and probably will be there for a while until something clicks and we pull our heads out of our arses. But at least i want to think we tried.

    Your are right the raiding is selfish, if there is one thing i have learned in 4 or 5 years in this game is that there are always people out there that will help you no matter what. To them raiding isn’t that important but helping a friend in need is.

    Hugs to you and hang in there.

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      Ty for the hugs :) You’re right it’s just about finding the people who are willing to help out once in a while.

  3. VokNo Gravatar says

    On the “wishlist”. We went back for ToGC the other night and Ulduar will be this week. It’s nice now that LK is dead to step back and do these things. And our timing seems perfect, as the Ruby thingy seems due to hit very, very soon.
    .-= Vok’s last blog: Friday Video: Super Mario Bros. =-.

  4. JaediaNo Gravatar says

    That sounds incredibly selfish of the first 10 man group. When you have a raid full of 25 people, it’s extremely unfair to go off and do a 10 man benefitting just themselves, leaving 15 people with nothing else to do. There are 4 trinkets in TotGC that could have gone to very good use. Sadly, you do come across a lot of selfish people in this game, and those 10 people at least sound mature about it compared to some.

    I know the feeling though, I was just a 1 Light kill away from the Rusted Drake on my Hunter and nobody would help me. Now I’ve had to go back to my Priest, and I’m again struggling to find people willing to help, they’re too interested in getting gear and achievements for their ALTS. Never ceases to amaze me..
    .-= Jaedia’s last blog: A Nice Surprise =-.

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      It’s ridiculous isn’t it – I just hate leaving things unfinished and having only 1 achievement from a Rusted Protodrake would drive me mad. That said, I’ve had the Hand of Ad’al quest half completed in my Quest Log for over a year /sigh.

      Good luck finding 9 more to go back and do 1 Light.

  5. PewterNo Gravatar says

    This strikes such a chord with me. We have a lot of difficulties getting a second ICC10 group, for very similar reasons, and a lot of resentment has built up at the group that is getting to Lich King and wants to down it, because the people who don’t get in on that run are sour about missing out on badges.

    That and we simply don’t have enough tanks interested in doing it.
    .-= Pewter’s last blog: AVR is Dead. Long Live the Bossmod =-.

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      It’s very difficult to get a second 10 man group up and running in a 25 man guild. Usually the 10 most determined/hardcore (or time rich?) players in the guild will find their way in. But a few will get left out.

      I like that Vitare really only has 1 ten man group. But our ten man group isn’t ahead of the 25 man progression – often they’re working on the same fights that we’re doing on 25 man. Or applying the 25 man strategy down to a 10 man size. Sometimes it goes the other way, but they’re definitely not getting access to special content.

      There’s no easy solution for your 10 man woes. If you slowly rotate in extra players so they can also get experience working on the Lich King you might actually set back the 10 man “progress” or perhaps cohesion is a better word.

      But, really, I think 10 mans and 25s handle Defile completely differently. So I’m not sure scaling up a 10 man strategy to 25s really works. We just use our 25 man stacking strategy for 10s – and it’s not ideal by any means – but it’s what we know.

      I think success in Lich King is really just about settling down and feeling comfortable about how to react to Defile (as an individual). Also, I just don’t DPS at all for the 5 seconds that Defile will be cast. Target switching to Val’kyr can just really throw off my concentration at the worse possible time.

  6. AmaNo Gravatar says

    This is why I’m my main is sitting lonely and I’m playing alts. This is why I have disliked 25 man raiding ever since ZA destroyed my guild back in BC. There is far too much drama involved with doing 10 mans when the primary focus of a guild is 25.

    The worst part is being looked down upon by the people who can do the 10 man, because you spent all night in a dungeon wiping because they snatched up all the correct roles so you had to bring the ragtag team. It just doesn’t work. It builds a dichotomy within the guild. No matter what you might say, resentment will build on both sides.

    This is the main reason I am thankful for the shared raid lockout that is coming with Cata.
    .-= Ama’s last blog: To Do List (Before Cataclysm) =-.

  7. YaneNo Gravatar says

    I feel I could have written this, although I’m in a 25-raid guild not as progressed as yours.

    I’d say we have about 20 people who have the time and gear to raid ICC-10 successfully. Of course that means one decent 10-man and another 10-man that is filled with alts that do okay but never really progress.

    The first 10-man group has defeated the LK. And in doing so now have no reason to push through 25.

    Our raid leader has even mentioned he can’t wait for Cata where 10-man will count as much as 25. I’m not sure if he realizes this isn’t motivational to his 25-man raid group. Maybe I’m wrong but what I hear is “I’ll be glad when I don’t have to worry about fielding a group of 25, when our consistent group of 10 can accomplish what needs to be done.

  8. soyinkaNo Gravatar says

    The reason behind that drama isn’t 10men vs 25men, neither is it the selfishness of some of your guildies.

    It’s just, as always, a misunderstanding, your officers thought going through a vote was a good idea, they got the drama they deserved.

    When you ask “ToGC ?”, people answer to 109849782 different questions.

    Some people answered no because they hate the instance.
    Some people answered no because they’d rather do ICC10/Naxx/Ulduar.
    Some people answered no because they want to go watch series.
    Some people answered no because they don’t need anything there.

    Some people answered yes because they need a trinket there.
    Some people answered yes because they love this instance.
    Some people answered yes because they really don’t want to go to Ulduar.
    Some people answered yes because X needs a trinket there.

    So what was the real question ?
    Let’s take your example !

    You answered yes, despite your hate of the instance, because X needs a trinket there, and you were shocked when others didn’t act like you.
    But If everybody answered like you, the officers would end up with 25 votes for each raid, right ?

    It’s only natural that drama ensues, since you and your yes-friends believe people who answered no did it out of selfishness whereas they were just answering a different and probably more reasonable question.

    Anyway if you want to avoid those dramas you only have to be clear : if your officers absolutely want to have votes, just have them say that whichever destination gets the more votes is going to be chosen, and that people should say yes if and only if they need it.

    Clearer, far less drama, if you’re the only one needing Naxx you might never go there, but at least it’s out in the open, you won’t go there because it’s a democracy, not because people are selfish.

  9. Deandre - DalaranNo Gravatar says

    NOTE: All of the following is personal experience, and I don’t expect it to apply to everyone, though I don’t expect it to be uncommon.

    By far the worst issue I find with the 10/25 division and progression for both is you often find that one group has snapped up the two best tanks and healers (honestly in 90% of the guilds I’ve been in, that one is the guild officer group as well).

    So now you have the two tanks that step up only when needed, and the healers that either have skill or confidence issues, and they’re used to being buffered by the other healers to ensure people don’t die. Add on a dose of the lead DPS usually being snapped up by the first group, especially the best balance of ranged and melee.

    And suddenly you have a second group that’s often prone to fall behind the other group, making for huge frustration which only makes it harder to focus.

    I’ve only been in one guild that was an exception to this, and they fell apart because 90% of the guild worked the same shift at the same place, and due to new management everyone got shuffled around. We could actually run two Kara/ZA groups at the same time, race each other, and enjoy it.

  10. BeruthielNo Gravatar says

    We have just one 10 man raid, that we put up a signup for on an off night. Anyone is welcome to sign up for it. I find that it saves tons of drama. There is definately a part of me that is glad I won’t have to deal with this kind of orginizational stress in Cataclysm.

    As for wish lists…we put up a post on the forums asking what people would like to see completed before Cataclysm hits. We only have 3 more HM in ICC (inclusive of LK) and then we’ve “beaten” the game. And it seems to me that we are going to find ourselves with extra time. We thought it would be fun for people to go back and hit things that they might have missed this expansion. It will also help fill some gaps in time and keep people interested in the game.

    At least that’s my theory!

    I also think that it will bring back some memories and lots of laughs for folks.

    The list right now includes things like: Yogg 0, the HMs people missed for their Ulduar drakes, The Immortal, A Tribute to Insanity (this one probably won’t happen for us!), Sunwell, we have one girl that is only 6 fragments from her Val’ynar and would like those last 6 fragments (even though she’s gone shadow!), hell we had someone ask for just plain Yogg because they’ve never gotten to see it.

    I hope to be able to start crossing these items off for people soon. It’s really too bad that you have people being stingy with their time and what they want to do :( Guilds are team efforts and sometimes being part of the team means helping out with things you don’t “need”.

    I hope you are able to get a few things checked off your list!
    .-= Beruthiel’s last blog: Make A Memory: Winterspring =-.

  11. AdgamorixNo Gravatar says

    This is going to turn into a blog post for me (thanks for the idea) – though I’m completely on the other side of the fence from you.

    I agree with Soyinka – putting it to a vote you’re going to get a mix of responses that don’t really answer your question. Plus, while you think it’s selfish of the 10m group to want to finish their run, they may think that it’s selfish of you to ask that they instead help battle older content for ‘obsolete’ mounts and titles.

    It’s like the old Rule #1 that Mongrr wrote about (http://savethelightwell.blogspot.com) What you consider selfish doesn’t mesh with what they consider to be selfish.

    I’ve always felt that a ‘guild raid night’ shouldn’t be put to a vote, the officers should figure out what the raid needs and go for it. As a raider you’ve committed to the time, so you shouldn’t be complaining about it. That being said, going for old achievements or mounts is different than say – a healer’s Val’anyr or some BIS trinkets.

    Time to blog my own thoughts on this.
    .-= Adgamorix’s last blog: I saw this coming – AVR slated for death row =-.

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      I don’t think it’s selfish to ask the 10 man group to finish their run on their own time. The opportunities for 10 people to get together is much greater than getting 25 people together.

      I’m sure they do think I’m being selfish for asking them to give their time for obsolete mounts and titles.

      The difference is that I need their help to get those 25 man mounts and titles. They don’t need my help/time to do their 10 man stuff. But they do need my help to do the 25 man stuff they want to do in the future.

      • AdgamorixNo Gravatar says

        The difference, in my opinion, is that mounts/titles don’t do anything for guild progression. Those items are purely cosmetic. You also reach that point where you run into the issue of finding a stop line. Do you run the Rusted Drake run until all mains have it? Just people who have 80% of the achievements? Folks with Yogg+1 only left?

        Of course guild mentality plays into it as well. The focus of your guild will play heavily into the decisions made by others. I have to say that given the same choice, I would have been someone voting for my 10-man continuation. Heck, even when I got my Val’anyr I still focusing more on 10-mans, it was a guild push to make it happen.

        It’s also not the 10m team’s “own time” if the scheduled raid was ICC and that was completed. At that point, if it’s put to a vote, your leadership is saying that they are no longer directing the raid and it’s a free for all. The guild should have a policy in place stating that if this type of thing happens then they will go and work on say – ToGC for some BiS trinkets.

        So we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. Shots at BiS gear or important upgrades – yes, if it’s during scheduled raid time then all the ‘core’ raiders and starters should be participating. Titles/Mounts/Achievements – no, you’re on your own for getting those done.
        .-= Adgamorix’s last blog: I saw this coming – AVR slated for death row =-.

      • CassandriNo Gravatar says

        Except new mounts are tied to new achievements which still award point on progression sites. So now we’re comparing two very small things – a few points which probably won’t make a difference to the guild, or the possibility of a couple players getting a minor ICC 10 upgrade which probably won’t make a difference to the guild.

        At least 25 man Ulduar or 25 man ToGC would have allowed the entire raid to participate.

        We’ll definitely have to agreed to disagree on this one :)

  12. ShivaNo Gravatar says

    This is why I LOVE the Cataclysm change making it impossible to do both 10 and 25 man on the same character for the same lockout.

    I absolutely hate doing 10 man. And ToC was the worse, ended up doing it 4 times per a character; and at the time since ToC was so little content my guild was doing alt raids, so I ended up doing it 8-10 times per a week. It was obnoxious, and I hate it.

    Thank god in ICC there are very few BiS from the 10 man, but Ulduar was terrible. So many people had BiS from 10 man Ulduar it was practically required to do. And I hated every minute of it.

    My guild is a bit more refined now. We don’t have any official 10 mans; and of the 10 mans we currently do, there are significant amount of alts in them. It’s really, really nice.

  13. RedbeardNo Gravatar says

    Well, there is still time for the Seeker… ;-)

    (Sorry, couldn’t resist.)

    Just curious, how many of that 10 man group are really upset that the gear drops in Cataclysm will be the same between 10 and 25 man raids?
    .-= Redbeard’s last blog: It Needed to be Said =-.

    • CassandriNo Gravatar says

      I have the Seeker! And Loremaster! The Insane is really the only individual achievement that I’d like to have (I’m a sucker for titles).

      Not sure what they think of the 10 and 25 man changes for Cataclysm. The players in the 10 man that I’ve spoken to are like me: not worried about gear, very worried about what the format change will mean for the guild.

      • RedbeardNo Gravatar says

        Heh. “The Insane” is rare enough to have as a goal for certain. I think I’ve seen it only once since I’ve started playing last August. (For the record, Loremaster about a dozen times, and Seeker about a half dozen.)

        The reason why I asked about what they think about the changes for Cataclysm is that the big ol’ fight you had doesn’t bode well for the future either. Guilds have broken up over lesser things, and it takes good guild leadership to keep things going.
        .-= Redbeard’s last blog: Tanks and Tanks Once More =-.

  14. PapaNastyNo Gravatar says

    As a quick clarification on a couple of things to maybe help readers understand just how split the votes were (I was the one administrating the votes):

    I asked for ppl to just vote yes if they wanted to do it, not necessarily if it was their top item on the list (e.g. people could vote for multiple options)

    13 out of 25 was the highest out of any vote (They all ranged from around 10-13)

    The 10 man vote was “10 mans or nothing”, so some of the voters for 10mans were actually just voting to goto bed early etc (Many of our raiders have family they might want to spend time with, or work early the next day)

    The vote for ToGC25 was only for trinket farming. As I knew the response which Anub would get (Some players have sworn to never ever go there again lol).

    Over half of the 10man team who were voting, voted yes to at least 1 of the 25man raids.

    We used to always run 2x 10man groups, I don’t specifically know why the second one stopped running, as it was regularly running (I think) and then stopped a little after I got back from overseas (Even though I did try to not use the players who were going to it in my 10man)

  15. NatarumahNo Gravatar says

    I can very much see why you’d be frustrated at this – doing all this hard work, but having the ultimate reward for it slip through your fingers.

    I recently joined a new guild, together with most of my old guild, since we were not really getting raids off the ground. Fortunately, I stick to 25mans with my raiding community, so my 10mans I can do with this guild.

    Since then I actually got quite some things done – even some classic raids – because people still want to complete these older raids or Naxx and up achievements.

    If you are willing to do it, you can always check who in your guild still wants TotGC and Ulduar done (Astral Walker titles are hawt) and perhaps pick a day in the weekends or such together to get it done. You could put an advertisement on your realm forum detailing you want to schedule such a thing, and see who turns up.

    I think you’d see many alts from progressive raiding guilds willing to get these achievements and gear on their alts (and have the experience for it) meaning less gear would be disenchanted (since you don’t need it) and you might be surprised at how many people show up.
    .-= Natarumah’s last blog: Party at the Ruby Sanctum =-.

  16. ClickityclopNo Gravatar says

    I did not enjoy the drama at all. Selfish or not, people know themselves, but I don’t think the voting results are at all adequate for us to judge. I mean, the vote asked “do you want to go togc25″ and people voted based on their own PERSONAL OPINION. Even if they personally did not like one option, it does not mean they wouldn’t have gone along all the same if asked to. I abstained from the vote for togc25, I would’ve preferred ULD25 and voted accordingly, but if majority had voted togc, I would’ve went togc and put in my full effort as usual.

    Also, at the point when the icc10 vote was put through, it didn’t look like we would do 25s at all, so I opted to vote for bed. Somehow I ended up invited to heal the 2nd icc10 group that night. Did I personally want to go spend another few hours in icc? No, not really, I don’t particularly enjoy healing (except on dreamwalker :D !) but since I liked the people who asked me to go along, I went anyway. Would I have done the same if it was togc? Most likely.

    MAYBE, just maybe, one of the reasons why I went to raid with that group is because I’m certain that when they asked me to heal, I was genuinely allowed a choice :P . I would not have been called ‘selfish’ if I had said no. You catch more bees with honey, and to the group that raged – insults are really counter productive to your cause.

  17. cubzNo Gravatar says

    this have and always will be a problem. what to do when a raid finished early.

    from past experience 99% of the time, 2nd raid always end up badly. i would just call the raid and form 10man grp or make a 25man grp with pugs.

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