HoTs and DoTs: A Restoration Druid and Shadow Priest

Why I Love 25s

You needed an army to take on Gruul the Dragonslayer.

You needed an army of 25 to take on Gruul the Dragonkiller.

Lathere wrote a post a while back comparing the two raiding formats available in Wrath these days: 10 mans or 25 mans. She can see all the advantages of running 10s (small group of good players, more personal contribution to success) and is forgetting all the great things about 25s – and it’s not just the gear.

In January our Burning Crusade raiding guild disbanded. We had about 15 people who turned up at raid time – too many to do a 10 man, so some missed out each week, and not nearly enough to do a 25 man. We had at least 10 players who hadn’t reached level 80 yet. And about 5 players who decided to stop raiding with Wrath of the Lich King. And we had lost about 10 players who defected to raiding guilds that were already doing 25 man raids.

We considered scaling down and becoming a 10 man raiding guild. And we decided to consider our options and regroup at the end of the week to decide. I had about 4 days to consider:

  • (a) staying with my friends and raiding 10 mans casually (2 nights per week) or
  • (b) striking out on my own in a brand new guild and raiding 25s seriously (more than 3 nights)

I made my decision on this topic back then in January. I decided that, sure, I’d keep a character in the guild to raid with my friends, but I was taking Cassandri out to a 25 man raiding guild. I didn’t care if I got put on a “casual” rank, or didn’t get the best gear, I wanted to be part of something much bigger than me and a few mates.

I never doubted my decision.

I love 25 mans. I love that 25 mans are so big that you feel insignificant. I’ll never forget the first time we went into Gruul’s Lair, a group of 25 people who had little to no raiding experience, and just threw ourselves, en masse, at these giant, supremely pissed off ogres. I loved standing shoulder to shoulder with my fellow rogues (there were three of us playing rogues at the time, and a Ret Pally that would have been included in our little club if he would only ditch the axe for a couple of swords and, well, stop glowing) hacking away at Gruul’s hoof even though I was skeptical that Gruul would even feel my Sinister Strike crits.

I love that now when my brother asks me “how do you do this boss?” I can’t give him an answer. I can tell him how I do it, as a caster, but I have no freaking idea how it’s tanked, healed or even what the melee have to do. I love that in a 25 man there is friendly competition between the DPS – because there are so many of us. I love party chat in a 25 man raid. The team within the team. You don’t get that in a 10 man.

I love that in a 25 man there’s just not enough room to spread out without tripping over someone else. If you’re trying to avoid any chain lightning ability the boss has you have to strategically group up in pairs or threes and move as one entity.

I love 25s. If I could raid 40 mans, I would.

I’ve never participated in an world raid boss but I once read a strategy for Doomwalker – the giant Fel Reaver dude that patrols around the Black Temple in Shadowmoon Valley. They recommended having, at a set point, a “calvary” – several groups of people who have been waiting out of combat – to ride in and take over. This idea just enthralled me. The strategies for defeating a boss that has no locked door, no instance portal, were so different to anything I had experienced. You need a giant army – every man and his dog – to fight Doomwalker.

I love the amount of strategy and coordination that is required by large raid teams. This is the part of me that actually finds battlegrounds interesting, the (small, small) part of me that actually enjoyed Skirmish. I love that it can fall to pieces so quickly, and I love when everyone stands in the exact right place at the exact right time – it’s beautiful.

So in my mind, while getting to meet Algalon was special (and definately more accessible on 10 mans), I’ll always think of myself as marking time when I’m in a 10 man. I do think of 10 mans as practise for the real thing: a chance to perfect your strategy and try things you might not get away with in a 25 man encounter.

That’s the way I’m wired I guess. I’m grateful that I was forced to make this decision back in January. I not conflicted over my play time like many other raiders currently juggling both 10 and 25 man raiding.

8 Responses to “Why I Love 25s”

  1. TeblaNo Gravatar says


    As I am sitting outside ToC for our guilds heroic 25 man on waitlist. I would rather wait and know I will eventually get the chance to raid this instance with my new guild than run amok with my old guid and not get 25 mans done.

  2. ChewyNo Gravatar says

    I like 25 man runs more too. They’re more of a pain to organize but there’s something much more epic about running with 25 other characters.

    Do you know of any casual 25 man guilds on Barthilas that run from 8:30 and will accept someone that can probably only make 1 run per week? I miss raiding.

  3. VokNo Gravatar says

    @chewy – give me some contact details for you, might know of one coming up.

    I love the fact that most of the reasons I don’t do 25′s anymore is the reason others do it. That being said, Obsolete has not been having the greatest run this xpac, maybe it’s more enjoyable when you’re doing a bit better.

    That being said, I wouldn’t trade the 10-man group for anything now, having a blast.

    Tis good, imo, that we now have the choice.
    .-= Vok’s last blog … Friday Vid =-.

  4. AntikrisNo Gravatar says

    I completely understand your sentiment. It was not until I left my casual guild that was struggling to get even 10 people together, that I threw myself onto pug tanking 25′s. Not for the gear (I am already adequately geared, thanks to emblem grinds), but for the excitement of having 2 fellow tanks in a coordinated mini-team enabling dps to unload a tsunami of damage onto otherwise unbeatable bosses. The noise, oh my, the noise; that is the first thing that struck me in my first 25. It humbles you. And being given the chance to tank it, to play a crucial role in that orgy of organized chaos, can be so uplifting.

  5. AdgamorixNo Gravatar says

    From a nostalgia point of view – yes, I love the 25s. From a raid point – I hate them. I love knowing all other 9 people in my raid. We are so close that we’ve been to each other’s weddings, ship computer parts overnight so they can raid the next day – hell one guy drove to another player’s house because his power was out.

    I don’t miss the drama and issues that goe with a 25 man raid – but I’m glad you like it, and that it fills your place in the game.

    I will say that I do enjoy our 25 man PUG ToC we run – only because I’m not guilded with the other 15 people…
    .-= Adgamorix’s last blog … Dangerously Delicious =-.

  6. LestuniemNo Gravatar says

    I feel you. I personally started raiding late TBC, did get to Black Temple, though all the important bosses didn’t get downed. Shame. The society in 25-mans is so wide compared to 10-mans. They should tune 10-mans to fit 25-man players also by some means. I also love doing 10-man but since the gear from 25 overkill the instance it loses half of it’s purpose when fights get tuned easier with it

    I personally play restodruid. Shame I didn’t get to feel 40-mans in vanilla, but I wish there comes an opportunity for it in future.

    Enjoy your raiding,

  7. CassandriNo Gravatar says

    @ Adgamorix: It’s true, organising 25 people to do the right thing can be absolutely horrible. But in the right guild it’s not bad at all and you can generally trust your fellow raiders to do their job (unless you’re leading).

    @ Tebla: You’ll find me outside ToGC too :) Who cares about the wipes? For the glory of the Alliance!

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